In my previous post I speculated on a Plan B if the unthinkable happened and the Latin Mass was banned.
It was a speculation.
I hope that it will never happen and, yes, I do know that it 'cannot' be banned but, sometimes life throws a googly at you and the impossible becomes possible.
I would like to thank those who commented and to post here, a comment made by a young Catholic woman named Hannah.
If there is anything to make me feel on top of the world (apart from two pints of Rev James), it is to see the witness of young Catholics.
Here is Hannah's comment, I hope she will forgive me for bringing it to the fore:-
"The Traditional Latin Mass cannot be banned and thank God for that.
I would be completely heartbroken if that happened. The banning of the Latin Mass would be the cherry on the top of this Chastisement the Church is undergoing.
The Church is under the judgement of God.
I pray that it will come to end.......soon.
To those who cannot attend a reverent Liturgy, have hope.
The Church will return to her former glory. You may think I'm crazy for saying that, but it's true.
Our Lady triumphs in the end. We must continue to hope and pray.
And, especially, give God due worship at the Holy Sacrifice.
I feel so close to God at the Latin Mass. I really can't describe it.
The Latin Mass is indescribable. I feel sorry for those who hate it.
Only the worst enemies of Holy Mother Church could hate it, could hate tradition and our heritage.
If you haven't been, GO! GO GO GO! You will never regret. It's amazing to sit there in silence before Mass without having to listen to the yakking before and after Mass.
It's amazing not to have to watch people treat God like a cracker aka Communion in the hand.
It's amazing not to see armies of lay people handle God ahd the sacred vessels.
It's amazing to be able to kneel to receive the Holy Eucharist on the tongue at the altar rail. And so on and so on.
Most of all, it's amazing to be able to lift your mind and heart to God in a Mass where you KNOW Heaven meets Earth."
Thank you Hannah.
brilliant writing which echoes my sentiments entirely!bring it all back-holy communion on the tongue kneeling:priest and altar servers facing the tabernacle and some humdinger of sermons please.all in latin except the sermon-maybe.god bless.philip Johnson.
ReplyDeleteI have decided to stop attending the church run by the Dominicans here in Melbourne and instead support Latin Mass parishes here in Melbourne-St Aloysius and st Phillips Blackburn North ,which has the EF on Saturday mornings.
ReplyDeleteAgreed Philip.
ReplyDeleteGervase - God bless Caulfield North, happy memories for me.
Yes Hannah,wonderful comment,it, fills us with hope.
ReplyDeleteOh my goodness.
ReplyDeleteYou shouldn't have, Mr. Collins!!
I'm only a Catholic who loved everything we've always loved. That's all. But, I suppose that's a pretty big deal today.
I just love the reverence and the beauty at the Latin Mass. I cannot speak highly enough of it. But, I do know one thing, the devil has robbed our Church of everything she stands for. Who is holding on to everything we hold dear?
The SSPX. The FSSP. And the rest of them. And the SSPX are supposed to be schismatic? I don't get it. They are Catholic in every way. It was an SSPX Priest who told me you don't treat God like a cracker. You won't hear any one else telling the truth like that.
It's the SSPX who understand there's a crisis in the Church. It's the SSPX who want to defeat Modernism
Anyway, I don't want to get off topic, but those are just some thoughts.
Pray for Holy Mother Church.
And thank you, everyone!! You didn't have to give me all the attention LOL!
God bless.
~Hannah
Hannah,
DeleteThe SSPX are not schismatic and you are perfectly free to fulfill your Sunday Mass obligation by attending their churches/chapels! Here is one reference attested by one Cardinal but there are many others, hope this one is of help!
:
Do the faithful, threatened by Pope John Paul II himself with excommunication if they adhere formally to the schism (Ecclesia Dei Afflicta, July 2, 1988), indeed incur any excommunication for going to SSPX priests for the sacraments?
Not at all. The priests of the Society are neither excommunicated nor schismatics (as figures such has cardinal Hoyos have made clear) that the Society is not schismatic (Is Tradition Excommunicated? pp. 1-39). This being so, how could any of the faithful who approach them incur these penalties? ((e.g., Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos), "the SSPX is not schismatic''.) H/T:http://sspx.org/en/faq-page/isnt-sspx-schismatic-1995
Cheers,
Michael.
Thank you so much!
DeleteWhat a relief. I just wish people, even Priests, would stop scaring people out of going there. They aren't doing anything wrong. How could they be?
God bless.
~Hannah
Richard/Hannah,
ReplyDeleteExcellent post and sentiments, and I absolutely agree with all you have stated too! Quo Primum cannot be abrogated, and thank God for the SSPX!
Cheers,
Michael.
Thank you for speaking the truth with passion, Hannah.
ReplyDeleteThank you so much. You're all too kind to me. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels the way I do.
DeleteGod bless!
~Hannah
Michael,
ReplyDeleteThank you!
And to all,
To be completely honest, I don't know a whole lot about the SSPX, besides the basics. I'm trying to learn from the Priest. Our family has been going to an SSPX chapel here in our area for a couple of weeks. All I've been told is they are a schismatic group, their Mass doesn't fufill the Sunday obligation, don’t go to Communion because it’s like going to communion at the Episcopal Church (WHAT?!), to stay away from them, etc. My Dad has found what he grew up with. I'm not going because I'm a Pope-hater etc. I'm not cutting myself off from the Pope and the Bishops yet everyone says if you go there, you are! Everyone says if you go there, you’re cutting yourself off from the Church! But, what they're doing is very attractive. And what are they doing? Practicing the Catholic Faith like we always did! What's wrong with that? Nobody talks in Church. No immodest dress. Women wear veils. The Priest is extremely reverent and treats Christ with reverence. We can kneel and receive Christ on the tongue. People don’t treat Christ like a cracker, as my SSPX priest friend says, who is the pastor of the chapel I’m going too. You get the point. This is what I want, though. I don’t understand how it could go wrong to go there. I want to do what’s right. I understand there’s a crisis in the Church and I can’t stand it. I wish there wasn’t. I wish Modernism wasn’t running rampant in the Church. What did Archbishop Lefebvre do that was so wrong? Wasn’t he trying to save the Faith as we’ve always known it?
The people who go to this chapel are very nice and friendly. Some are part of the resistance and some aren’t.
Does anyone here to go the SSPX? If so, please help me to understand. Please tell me it isn’t a mortal sin to go there. I apologize for the long post. I just want to understand.
Thank you.
God bless.
~Hannah
Hannah,
ReplyDeleteI have been attending at an SSPX chapel for a good number of years now and have no qualms about doing so. They are clearly not schismatic as other writers have pointed out. Where I live there are seven catholic churches and it is with great sadness that I do not feel at home in any of them or can take part in a normal parish life. It is the Mass that matters as this is central to our catholic faith and nowhere is that faith better expressed than in the TLM. By attending SSPX chapels you will be called all manner of things but do not be put off by that. The introduction of the Novus Ordo Mass was an attempt to rid the church of the TLM. Thank God it has failed but the battle is far from over. Try and get a copy of Archbishop Lefebvres book "an open letter to confused catholics" which explains matters in a simple straightforward way. God bless and thanks to Richard for this post.
Thank you!
DeleteI've heard of that book. I will make sure to get it. I'm working on looking into everything I can find about the SSPX.
I agree with everything you've said. You KNOW you're in Heaven at the TLM. Now, for the Novus Ordo, you really don't know where you are. I get the impression I'm at a women's party. The worst part being they barely wear anything! Seriously? I'd much rather have the SSPX. I think Archbishop Lefebvre saved the TLM!
I've been feeling so great since first going their, minus everyone scaring me out of it. The TLM keeps me going, so to speak. I can't wait till this weekend to go back.
We must KEEP fighting the battle. When you're all gone, I'll keep fighting. I will NOT see my Faith destroyed by those who hate the Church. I was born in '97. You wouldn't believe all the deep studying, analyzing, etc that I've done over the past few years so I can figure out what happened. I will keep doing what's right. And I will keep clinging to tradition, my heritage. Nobody has any right to take it away from me. It's my "birthright", so to speak.
This motto is always before my mind:
We are what you once were. We believe what you once believed. We worship as you once worshiped. If you were right then, we are right now. If you were wrong then, we are wrong now.
Amen to that!!
God bless you.
~Hannah
"...you don't treat God like a cracker" Amen!
ReplyDeleteHang on a minute - the SSPX don't accept Vat II and many other things, they are not in communion with the See of Peter. (Check Wikipedia etc) The matters between them and Rome are not resolved.
ReplyDeleteSquashed Sardine,
DeleteSurely, No catholic in good standing with the Church is obliged to accept Vat II as it was Only a Pastoral Council and Not a Doctrinal Council nor was it an Infallible General Council of the Church! Yes it occurred Historically! Here is a quote that I hope may qualify the above;
" At the end of Vatican II, the Council Fathers asked Cardinal Felici for what theologians call the theological note of the Council. In other words, what is the status of the Vatican II documents? Cardinal Felici replied, “We have to distinguish according to the schemas and the chapters those which already have been the subject of dogmatic definitions in the past; as for the declarations which have a novel character, we have to make reservations.”25
Thus, Cardinal Felici recognized that Vatican II contained novelties no Catholic is bound to accept. These novelties, such as ecumenism and religious liberty, are contrary to what the Church has always taught, and have proved disastrous for the Church and for souls.'' (http://www.sspxasia.com/Newsletters/2006/Jan-Jun/Rome_and_SSPX_pg2.htm) Hope this is of help!
Cheers,
Michael.
Michael,
DeleteIf Vat II has the status you describe, then surely the SSPX can accept that as the rest of us Catholics do? Isn't this a case of the SSPX giving Vat II a higher status than is justified, and then running away from the straw man they themselves have created? Many Catholics too, bow down to this 'straw man' and their acquiescence has caused corruption on many levels on the mainstream side, but both sides have to look at the facts as you describe them - many on the mainstream side have to get real on Vat II and SSPX has to stop frightening everyone with unfounded fears? Thanks for your post,btw, very helpful!
Squashed Sardine,
DeleteThe SSPX do accept that Vat11 happened historically! As a simple layman I wound contend that the: Council did not change any dogma or doctrinal concept as regards to Catholic Tradition (Hermeneutic of Continuity)-The post Conciliar apostate Church is the main problem with its false interpretation of the Council documents! The Mass before the Council, at the Council and after the Council in essence and entirety was the Mass of Pope St Pius V!
Cheers,
Michael.
Ok, so I think you and I actually agree on this, and we're saying the same thing. We need the rest of them to catch up! Found a great book I'm about to buy which goes into this in comprehensive detail - 'Will many be Saved?- by Ralph Martin, itching to read it! Here's praying for the return of the TLM to it's rightful central role in the life of the Church!
DeleteSquishy.
Squashed Sardine,
ReplyDeleteI accept NOTHING that is disastrous to the Faith. I do not accept innovation. I do not go along with Modernism. Period.
Am I communion with the Holy Father? Of course I am! He's my Pope. I will always love him. I recognize His Authority, but it doesn't mean I AGREE with everything he says and does. One can disagree with the Pope, as long as he isn't speaking infallibly, of course.
As Ye Olde Jarra Scribe (love the name btw!) said, novelties are contrary to what the Church has always taught, therefore we aren't going along with them.
For instance, the ecumenism of today is all about dialogue, dialogue, dialogue. We're supposed to be converting the Jews, Protestants, etc to the One, True Church without which there is no salvation. THAT is what it's all about.
No Salvation outside the Church is not something you hear a whole lot about these days in the Church, either. It's still Church teaching, though.
As for religious liberty..well what happened to the Social Kingship of Christ. Don't hear much of that, do we? The State should be submitting to the Church, not the other way around. And on and on it goes.
It's not just a matter of the Council, Council, Council all the time. We're talking about some of the chief tenets of our Faith here!
All the SSPX are doing is hanging on the Faith as it was always taught. Yet, we get treated like lepers? Oh well, we'll never give up. We'll keep fighting for the Church, come what may.
God bless.
~Hannah
Never ever be intimidated into compromising the objective truth, and your reason, which enables you to recognise it. Your teachers must be very proud of you! Were you homeschooled? Thank you for your eloquent witness.
DeleteMs. Lynda,
DeleteI'm a freshman. I'm only 16!
And yes, I am homeschooled.
Thank you for the encouraging comment.
God bless you.
~Hannah
Yes, the fact that you have not been contaminated by state or pseudo-Catholic schools tells. Pray to always have supportive people in your life. If only 10 per cent of young people were properly educated, morally, intellectually,, etc., as you have been, we would have a vastly different world. God bless you.
DeleteThe Mass of Paul VI, while valid and if reverently celebrated can produce a Saint who attends it (Mother Teresa); BUT it fails as a rite to manifest WELL that "what is going on in Heaven, is going on on earth" to summarize St. Gertrude's account of her vision during the Canon of the Mass (now option 1). It COULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT in applying the recommendations of the Council. It CAN be in the future. What is holding up the process of the "reform of the 'Reform' is the prohibition of employing much of the ceremonial of the Ancient Rite, as Paul VI forbade retaining most of it, which no subsequent pope has reversed. There are some important SYMBOLIC problems with the new usage in every section of the Mass. The second problem is the clergy itself; the bishops, orthodox and spiritual DON'T SEE THE PROBLEM. This I predict will eventually be overcome, but not for a long while.
ReplyDeletePete Salveinini,
DeleteWhile the NO is valid and was licitly promulgated by Paul V11! However, I personally believe and think that it is defective for these major aspects: The TLM is God/Christ centered-while the NO is man Centered, and the whole rite consists of a Protestant nature, BCP - simply it is a reenactment of Cranmer's communion table! PP X11 said:
''I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucia of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith in her liturgy, her theology and her soul. I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the sacred chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historic past.”
“A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted; she will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalen weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask where have they taken Him?” (H/T:http://jamiestanthony.com/blog/2013/06/28/some-quotes-from-pius-xii/)
Cheers,
Michael.
Sadly, I think it most likely that most priests and bishops know the sad, demeaned state of the liturgy leads directly to a lessening of the Faith - and that is just as they wish it. They continue doing what they've been doing for 45 years, while the numbers of believing or practising Catholics keeps diving.
DeleteIn place of Heaven on Earth, the TLM, they give us a Liturgy that barely even emphasizes God?
ReplyDeleteWhat are people subject too? Let's see. Plenty that shouldn't be going on like Lay people handling the sacred vessels and the Holy Eucharist, which obviously shouldn't be done. Only consecrated hands should be touching the Holy of Holies. And for that matter, only those who are ordained should be entering the sanctuary.
Communion in the hand which is ridiculous. God is not an everyday object and he isn't a chip. No wonder only 75% believe he's present anymore.
No kneeling for Holy Communion. Well, he's God, right?
Immodest dress. Well, we're not going to a bar, right? You'd be scandalized by what I've seen. Who would believe they're at Calvary?
Distasteful music. Even Vatican II says Gregorian Chant should be given pride of place!
Ugly architecture. How in the world are we supposed to lift our minds and hearts to God in a despicable building that looks like a museum?
And on and on it goes.
How we worship says a lot about what we think about God.
Sad, isn't it?
God bless.
~Hannah
When the Archbishop of Birmingham celebrated a Solemn Mass (Ordinary Form) at the Oxford Oratory recently, ad apsidem and in Latin, with deacons at the throne, a coped assistant priest and a bugia-bearer, was this an example of ROTR or of liturgical abuse?
ReplyDeleteJohn...I refer to the late Fr Thwaites' analogy of the two Masses, one is water, the other milk.
ReplyDeleteThank you all. I am so impressed at the charitable tone set in these comments and by the erudition displayed.
ReplyDeleteIf I had to choose one comment that summed up my stance, it would be the one from my dear friend Ye Old Jarra Scribe, thanks Michael and thank you for that great quote from Pius XII.
And thank you all for being so kind to me. And to you, Mr. Collins, for dedicating a whole post to me (you really shouldn't have LOL!).
ReplyDeleteKeep fighting for the Faith...
“I make an urgent appeal to the earth. I call on the true disciples of the living God who reigns in Heaven; I call on the true followers of Christ made man, the only true Savior of men; I call on my children, the true faithful, those who have given themselves to me so that I may lead them to my divine Son, those whom I carry in my arms, so to speak, those who have lived on my spirit. Finally, I call on the Apostles of the Last Days, the faithful disciples of Jesus Christ who have lived in scorn for the world and for themselves, in poverty and in humility, in scorn and in silence, in prayer and in mortification, in chastity and in union with God, in suffering and unknown to the world. It is time they came out and filled the world with light. Go and reveal yourselves to be my cherished children. I am at your side and within you, provided that your faith is the light which shines upon you in these unhappy days. May your zeal make you famished for the glory and the honour of Jesus Christ. Fight, children of light, you, the few who can see. For now is the time of all times, the end of all ends. -From the Secret of Our Lady of LaSalette
~Hannah
Hannah - do you have a blog? If not please start one, you could set the world on fire.
ReplyDeleteI do not.
DeleteI'm honestly not the best writer. I don't feel like I'm up to it now. But, one day I might. And when I do, I'll be sure to let you all know!
Me? Set the world on fire? Oh, please. LOL!
I'm nobody special. I'm just a Catholic who is trying to hang on to what she has received, just as Archbishop Lefebvre said.
But, thank you anyway.
God bless you.
~Hannah
“I have never changed. I have
preached and done what the Church has always
taught. I have never changed what the Church said in
the Council of Trent and at the First Vatican Council.
So who has changed?...It is the enemy, as St. Pius
X said, the enemy who is working within the Church
because he wants the Church to be finished with her
tradition."
(Archbishop Lefebvre, Homily, Venice, 7 April 1980
Oh my goodness!
ReplyDeleteThis post is on Gloria.tv!
http://gloria.tv/?media=504228
I wasn't expecting any of this...
~Hannah
This will certainly not be a popular comment on this interesting post, but is it not the case that except in the case of 'danger of death' priests of the SSPX do not have canonical authority to forgive sins i.e. to hear Confessions, nor are marriages conducted by the SSPX valid according to Canon Law?
ReplyDeleteStrictly speaking, umblepie, that is quite correct, and until the situation is regularized you are better off confessing to a priest whose canonical status is not in doubt. You can, of course, request the formula for absolution given in the older Roman Ritual - most of the younger priests I know are more than happy to oblige.
ReplyDeleteI have no problems with attending SSPX Masses (I attended Abp Lefebvre's Mass in the Great Western Hotel, Paddington, in the mid-1970s; when in his sermon he referred to "l'autel et le foyer" I think everyone present did a quick double-take!). In Paris in the early 1990s St-Nicholas-du-Chardonnet was the only option if you wanted a Latin Mass (things are marginally better these days) and in Brussels six years ago the only sign of recognizably Catholic liturgical life was at the SSPX church in the Leopold quarter, an imposing 19th century edifice built as the Belgian National Shrine.