Sunday, 20 May 2012

Some charismatics will stop at nothing

Pity the poor traditional Catholic in this clip.

He's in a corner, literally, and the cheerleader (choirmaster) with the bowtie and gun, is encouraging him to sing a la charismatic style...."If you're happy and you know it...."


  1. Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!

    Praise the Lord, Hallelujah!

  2. parece Ratzinger con los de la fsspx

  3. Part One (Sorry - Essay Alert!!!!!)

    I suspect that I am about to state a few things that neither traditionalists nor charismatics will like.

    But bare with me. You might not have heard this before (but you might start hearing it more in the future)..........

    The Charisms of the Church where originally for those who would now consider themselves traditionalists (What? I hear you say).

    So what happened. The ghetto-ised enclave of charismatic renewal is what happened.

    Those in charismatic renewal were not supposed to moan and whinge about guitars at every opportunity. The whole point was that they were supposed to leave their charismatic conferences (totally forget about guitars) and:

    1) take an active role in their own salvation
    2) help others attain their salvation
    3) build up God's kingdom
    4. build up The body of Christ.

    The Catholic Charismatics have virtually failed to date because this did not happen. What happened was that most became involved in what is now known as the 'charismatic jungle' who chased from one conference to the next, and were only in it for 'the tingle' (sorry to quote Americanised charismatic speak but, I think the wording actually makes it easier to understand what is going on).

    At their conferences they are involved in the charisms of the church but, then selfishly hi-jacked these charisms for themselves, failed to pass them on, and alienated a whole branch of theology (and a branch of the Magisterium of the Church) from everyday Catholics. The charisms of the Church are meant for ALL Catholics AND ARE NOT A THIEFDOM.

    Now we have a major problem in the Church because:

    1) We have the charismatics who are basically not doing what they are told to by their leadership and not building up the Church. They have turned the charisms of the church in to a ‘we haven't got guitars in out Churches yet’ whinge-fest. They have left the original ‘charisms of the church’ in a despised corner where they are alienated and despised by pew sitters, Latinists, traditionalists and even the liberals.

    (sorry traditionalists – your bit next)

    2) We then some traditionalist who deny the works of the Holy Spirit. By denying the works of the Holy Spirit they are denying scripture and the Magisterium of the Church. They are hypocrites because they say that they believe scripture & the Magisterium and then go on in the next breath to deny the charisms which also played a major part in the lives of the saints which they say they have a devotion to.

    3. We then have the brigade that say that the charisms where only meant for Pentecost. If that is true then why go on and state faithfulness to the Magisterium of the Church. After all Padre Pio, St. Catherine, St John Vianney and Blessed Alexandrina had more charismatic events in their lives that you can shake a stick at.

    4) We then have the brigade who say that the charisms where meant for saints and not for everyday people. This is a ridiculous notion because they were not saints when they had their first charismatic experience. Neither were they uber-holy the first time they ever had a charismatic experience. It was through having charismatic experiences that they were able to grow in holiness. Every Catholic is called to sainthood and one of the things that may aid this is taking an active part in the charisms of the Church.

  4. Part 2 - Nearly there!

    Blessed Alexandrina had roughly 182 (what are known as) ecstasies when she relived the Passion 182 times and also undertook a 13 year Eucharistic fast i.e. she did not eat for 13 years apart from the Blessed Sacrement. The Vatican have also rubber stamped the fact that Padre Pio could bi-locate i.e. be in two places at the same time. Beyond this he knew the state of men’s souls without them even having to open their mouths (the list goes on).

    So it is time for ALL Catholics i.e. pew sitters, Latinists, Traditionalists and liberals to all make their mind and decide whether they believe in scripture and the Magisterium of the church and accept that bazaar things do happen which are known as charisms which the Church fully accepts.

    Before I am accused of being a raving Charismatic go to my blog and then try and say that I am. It is about as traditional as it can get. However, I do 100% believe in the Bible and the Magisterium of the Church and I am angry that the charisms have been hi-jacked by charismatic renewal and not put to their proper uses within the Body of Christ.

    It is interesting to note that at Brigg in North Lincolnshire the priest has not only re-instated the altar rail and many of the original Catholic traditions, and Latin Mass but, has also introduced a course specifically to bring back the charisms of the Church. The shocking news for traditionalists is that the charisms are also part of the traditions of the Catholic Church and always were.

    I do not expect people to necessarily agree with me but, I hope it is food for thought.

  5. One imagines St. Paul plunking on a guitar and yowling while coaching the catechumens in making felt banners.

    No, it just won't do. What some are peddling as charisms is simply a failure to grow up and get over the look-at-me-me-me thing. Martin Luther and Henry VIII followed that path. We know better.

    - Mack in Texas

  6. I hear what ORA PRO NOBIS is saying, although this comment is similar to the one they left on Father Ray's blog but a bit more angry towards Charismatics.

    I would just add that the only people I have personally ever heard whining about guitars in Mass, are traditionalists.

    I favour no music during Mass, I find it very distracting to my spirit, as it always evokes my senses far more than my spirit. It's like having to digest food whilst praying, not an aid to me at all.
    I appreciate this is not the case for all souls.

  7. Anonymous said:

    "What some are peddling as charisms is simply a failure to grow up and get over the look-at-me-me-me thing. Martin Luther and Henry VIII followed that path. We know better."

    YOU can't know what is in men's hearts, you can presume, as you have done, in your comment.

    What does the Magisterium have to say about presumption again, remind me please, I didn't attend Catholic schools?

  8. I presume nothing; I observe.

    My fall-back argument is harmonic convergence from the bongos. And The Voices.

    - Presumptuous in Texas

  9. The reason this post is so funny is because the man holding the gun is Mark Shea. I think this has been lost on some here...

    Also, Shadowlands, there is nothing more dreary or modern as the "don't presume/don't judge" meme. The way you use it, and the way it is generally used today, is equivalent to "don't think". Weighing evidence, the process of learning and evaluating life and behavior is different than pronouncing (that is, judging) upon someone's eternal salvation.
    Scott W

  10. "The reason this post is so funny is because the man holding the gun is Mark Shea. I think this has been lost on some here..."

    That's the reason the post is so funny to you Scott. It is not necessarily the reason it is so funny to others.

    "Also, Shadowlands, there is nothing more dreary or modern as the "don't presume/don't judge" meme. The way you use it, and the way it is generally used today, is equivalent to "don't think". Weighing evidence, the process of learning and evaluating life and behavior is different than pronouncing (that is, judging) upon someone's eternal salvation."

    Blimey, I'm dreary whereas you sound like a bag of laughs !!

    I still say you're presumptuous and I would like to add judgmental and an intellectual snob to my critically thought out analysis of you, while I'm at it.

    Regarding your judgment of the charisms being peddled/expressed by Charismatics, I would direct you to the late Pope JP. I take it he is someone you would respect and acknowledge as having been a 'thinker'

    Long Live the Charismatics. - Pope John Paul II, 1981
    Open yourselves docilely to the gifts of the Spirit. Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us. Do not forget that every charism is given for the common good, that is for the benefit of the whole Church. — John Paul II, 1998.

    "Popes Paul VI and John Paul II both blessed the charismatic renewal but said that it will fulfill its purpose only when, like the early liturgical movement, it ceases to have a separate identity of its own and is absorbed into the whole Church." Sr Ed Sousa

  11. I think i have a little to add hear:

    Part 1

    The problem with Vatican II was not in the document but, in its misinterpretation. The 50's & 60's ushered in an increase in disposable income, 'the sexual revolution', and materialism which started the “me, me, me” mentality of "I can have what I want in my life so why can't I have it in the Church".

    Vatican II accommodated this. I will give you the all time classic example from page 96 of Vatican II (paragraph 63 - study edition).

    Vatican II states the following regarding music.

    'In permitting and using of musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual people's must be taken in to account.....

    The modernist brigade always utilise this statement to the nth degree. However, they then forget/ignore the following sentence.

    However, those instruments which by common opinion and use, are suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions'.

    Therefore an electric guitar should not be used in any Catholic Mass because by common opinion electric guitars are used in secular music. You can not get any more ‘sex, drugs and rock and roll’ than an electric guitar.

    However, we can not stop any Catholic group doing what ever they want outside of Mass. There does have to be some common sense put in place somewhere along the line. We look ridiculous when we make blanket statements without knowledge of the facts. Music liturgy during Mass is a different issue. Vatican II clearly states that there is no room for the secular during Mass.

    So, what happened next? We get the longest running soap opera in the church since Vatican II - Guitars v's Organ. The juxtaposed words in the text of culture (which is permitted) and secular (not permitted) caused all this trouble because the present culture was controlled by the new found materialism and pop music culture. So what did people want in their church after Vatican II? Answer - guitars.

    It is now time once and for all to clear up the disaster that came out of all this which is the perception of blatant liberalism and secularism pervades charismatic renewal. Before I start both the traditionalists and the charismatics are not going to like some of what I say. So be prepared.

    At this point I wish to give a balanced view point of both sides of the argument. I own two electric guitars. I play them extremely badly but I would never get rid of them. However, because of what Vatican II states I would never dream of playing them at Mass. This will be an extremely contentious issue for some who believe that there is no such thing as a secular instrument. Some people believe this to the nth degree, especially those in Charismatic Renewal. It needs to be clearly stated here that this is not a liberal stance for them.

  12. Part 2 -

    The difference between a liberal and a charismatic on this issue is; the liberal states that

    “I hear pop music in my TV and radio, I like it, and now I want it in my church”

    The charismatic would state that:

    “I hear pop music in my TV and radio, I like it, and now I want it in my church because it will have missionary value and be accessible to those on the outside of the church (and some people on the inside of the church); there is no such thing as a secular instrument because all instruments can be used for the glory of God. If there is such a thing as a secular instrument then it should be taken out of the hands of Satan and played for Gods glory.”

    For the traditionalist reading this there is a clear difference between the two stances.

    For the Charismatic reading this book, please continue playing the electric guitar at your charismatic conferences but, please also take a minute to consider the wording of Vatican II regarding music liturgy. We are not evangelical, we are not Pentecostals. We are all a part of the Catholic Church. I am personally like Time Hughes, Matt Redman and Lydia Stanley. However, as Catholics we must be obedient to the Magisterium. Just has a nun demonstrates obedience to God by being obedient to her Abbess. Catholics demonstrate obedience to God by being obedient to the Magisterium of the Church. It does not matter what any of us want in the Mass.

    It does not matter what the traditionalist, the Latinists, the pew sitters, the liberals or the Charismatics want.

    When we all start demanding things in Mass then we end up once again no better than the liberals who wish to bring the secular world in to the Mass. At the end of the day all this traditionalist, Latinist, Charismatic posturing is really just secularism i.e.

    “I want X, Y, & Z because…………………..”

    It is never about what we personally want because it is only ever about showing obedience to God by showing our obedience to the One True Church.

    We do not modernise the Church by bringing guitars in to Mass. We modernise the Church by embracing all our catholic traditions, having a vigorous defence of the Faith, pro-life issues, families, marriage, and placing evangelisation back at the centre of the mission of the Catholic Church. Hunger for a Catholic identity and living the faith radically in line with Church teaching is now the way to modernise the Church.

    Why? Because it is these things that make us obedient to the Magisterium of the Church which means that we are all also being obedient to God.

    However, in defense of the charismatics I do with to state that I have met a lot of them that

    1. Do not have sex before marriage
    2. No not use contraception in marriage
    3. Use Natural Family Planning.

    The problem is that this 'music' thing gets in the way of what is actually going on. Until there is understand of what is actually going on we and the traditionalist understand what the charismatics are up to we will not be able to move forward and rid the church of secularised Catholicism aka liberalism.

    The charismatics really do need a kick up the 'you know where' now though, and need to grow up, other wise they are no good to man nor beast.

  13. Sorry there were a couple of mis-wordings in there.

    I also want to say that I am not like Time Hughes etc.

    More haste, less speed.

  14. I apologise for the long diatribes (which I hope were some use).

    I could summerise the whole thing by saying -

    There are little old ladies in there houses using the charisms of the church. This is not the preserve of the charismatics.