This is probably the comment most frequently uttered by those Catholics who attend Mass in the Extraordinary Form for the first time.
And, of course, it is quiet. Why the surprise?
When they go to little Johnny's school to see his solo recorder performance does the audience chatter throughout?
Or, when they attend a live performance (play, ballet, opera) do members of the audience wander around, chatting throughout the performance?
And, of course, it is quiet. Why the surprise?
When they go to little Johnny's school to see his solo recorder performance does the audience chatter throughout?
Or, when they attend a live performance (play, ballet, opera) do members of the audience wander around, chatting throughout the performance?
And, before anyone points it out, yes, this is an SSPX priest celebrating Mass....faultlessly!
You do have some funny ideas about non-Traditional Mass, Richard. The Mass I attend is always quiet, reverential and prayerful... of course nobody chatters through it! Yes, this is a Traditionalist blog, but your sweeping statements on the subject seem utterly bizarre to me and downright offensive at times.
ReplyDeleteSue
A comment I received a few years ago when coming out of a church in Paris (one of at least 4 there which now regularly celebrate the EF) was 'Mais on n'a rien fait.'. I had to refrain from asking the lady what she expected to have done there as she was going to show me the way to the nearest Metro station!
ReplyDeleteSurprisingly she was of a certain age and I did wonder how she could have forgotten that people once prayed without interruption at such a Mass.
You mention behaviour at live performances etc.I have come to the conclusion that people in general have no idea how to behave in public any more. I know the cinema is not a live performance but I despair when on my last two visits to the cinema I have been next to someone eating a Big Mac and more recently someone opening up a plastic box and taking out tuna sandwiches. Both 'meals' were very smelly!
Have just come back from a Cathedral service where it was quiet throughout. Before and after, however, there was incessant chat and even laughter. The Blessed Sacrament totally ignored. Several people tried to greet me in the Cathedral itself and at one point my husband asked some people if they would be quiet as I was trying to pray. All of them Catholic. Most 'over a certain age'. They were taught, as I was, that silence should be maintained in church to honour the Blessed Sacrament. I stopped going to my local church years ago because if this. I used to go in just as Mass started and leave as the priest left the altar.. When folk started talking during Mass as well (one chap slapped his neighbour on the back on the way to Communion and asked him how he was)! I could stand it no longer and high tailed it back to the Latin Mass. Deo gratias! We have it in abundance here!
ReplyDeleteChloe
Sue, you are blessed to have a reverent Novus Ordo Mass to go to, but, see above comments. More people with funny ideas...also please try Mass anywhere in this part of Menevia and you may well be shocked to find that I am right.
ReplyDeleteOh, and, Sue, you omitted to say how much you loved the video clip......?
ReplyDeleteHaving another little dig Richard?
ReplyDeleteI find such sparkly ostentation a distraction, to be honest. And SSPX have hardly redeemed themselves recently...very nasty lot masking their agenda with 'tradition'.
Sue
Sue, you will certainly know if I am having a little dig, have no fear. You cannot condemn a good and holy order just on the grounds of one demonstration by a faction. But then, on second thoughts, perhaps you can.
DeleteAlways a barb Richard...'sigh'.
DeleteIt seems to me that this 'faction' is just the tip of the iceberg, and that the SSPX are hiding behind 'traditionalism' to excuse their condemnation of the majority of Catholics along with their very un-Christian views.
There are some evil blogs out there...
Sue
An interesting post and quite, quite true.
ReplyDeleteOddly enough, however, I attend an ancient Rite Low Mass on Sundays offered by the ICKSP which is anything but quiet. The Institute presumably feels that non-stop noise of one sort or another is normal and so they have fairly dreadful organ music playing - even through the Canon! - almost constantly during the entire Low Mass. Of course the wonderful contemplative aspect of this beautiful Rite goes right out the window with that sort of thing. Before this traditional order was given control of the Church by Archbishop Dolan the Masses said there were exquisitely beautiful, the Low Masses said in profound, touching silence and the High Masses sung with a skilled, brillaint choir (since disbanded by the Institute and replaced with a Choir Director who would be more at home leading songs at a Boy Scout campout).
So even traditional Masses can be created that are every bit as cacophonous as Novus Ordo ones. Going to one of these constant organ Low Masses can be a bit of a chore now, unfortunately.
The whole thing is rather odd because the Institute is devoted to the ancient Rite yet cannot see how their peculiar musical ideas and tastes can so easily destroy what they are trying to build up. They are a fine order with many good priests but I'm afraid that musically they are tone deaf.
AP, yes, I have heard this before and it is rather sad that the ICKSP do not appear to 'get it'. Is it the result of an over zealous organist? I find, very often, priests are unwilling to rein in excesses in terms of altar servers, choirs etc.
DeleteAlas, no: it is not an overzealous organist in this case. The priests from the Institute have insisted on this, just as they have insisted on eliminating the Leonine prayers after the Sunday Low Mass so as to accommodate more organ playing and community singing. Odd.
DeleteAged parent is it not time that you raised this issue with the Priest concerned instead of constantly raising it here?
DeleteEven the most "reverently said" Novus Mass, is still "chatty" - by design. Regardless if the people in the pews are talking sports or saying nothing, there is the incessant chatter of the priest, and the responses of the people. There is so much "talking" when prayers must be said out loud, in vernacular, and directed to the people with the ensuing rounds of responses the people must make. This is indeed chattiness, and certainly so compared to the traditional Mass with is lack of such "dialog" between priest and people, and it's many times of silence (with at most peaceful, melodic chant), such as that when taken as even a whole, the traditional Mass is very "chat" free, and one can pray as they wish in great peace and contemplation.
ReplyDeleteExactly right - the OF encourages a more casual attitude, not only in its 'chattiness', but also in the matter of posture: very little kneeling compared to the EF. We People of God don't kneel, we stand (or sit) to show we're on equal terms with God! And of course, there's Communion taken in the hand, standing.
DeletePerhaps because of this I have to say that when I manage to get to an EF Mass in a diocese (English) which has very poor provision for it, I don't find behaviour a lot better- people talk loudly before and after Mass, sit through most of it, allow their children to misbehave and insist on saying all the responses even if the rubric specifies that only the servers respond. And the fuss if a decent choir is imported and we don't get to sing the 'Missa de angelis' off-key!
I attend the SSPX Mass here in the US but also take my two youngest teens to the N.O. Mass here in town when they visit twice a month. Even though it is a very conservative parish, I still wish we could attend the TLM they grew up with, for the boys seem to have lost much of their reverence for the Mass, whether OF or EF. I simply cannot stay focused during the NO Mass, which is probably my bad, but I am used to the silence, serenity and overtly Reverential TLM. And then there are the myriad modes of dress to contend with...
ReplyDeleteThe noticeable feature of the” New Mass” I attend is noise, particularly the hymns, four, five and, even on two occasions, six. Together with the 100% turn out for Holy Communion, and certainly not because we are a holy congregation, one could be at a Protestant communion service, except there, the bread and wine would be treated with greater respect. And as for the handshaking........
ReplyDeleteContemplation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass taking place is effectively impossible.
Could any priests out there please do something about this!
You are not alone in suffering this.
DeleteRED
ReplyDeleteVestments of red
Altar cloth too
Martyrs who bled
Did this for you.
Gold Tabernacles
Veiled in red’s hue
Martyrs in shackles
Hung for this view.
Red mums full bloomed
In water and brass
Martyrs consumed
Burned for this Mass.
Red rays of sun
Rose-streak the nave
Their suffering done –
Now red we must crave!
Thank you LS; beautiful as ever. I used to work in the flower trade and seeing the word "mums" brought it all back.
DeleteRichard, As someone who truly loves silence, I have problems with you comparing the celebration of the Mass to a performance.
ReplyDeleteParepidemos, I was construing a learned response to your accusation and then I saw Mrs D's comment. Mrs D says what I would have wished to have stated but she does it much more eloquently than I ever could.
DeleteThank you Mrs D.
Sue, I suggest, in all Christian charity, that you attend not one but at least five EF Masses and then form a judgement. I believe that the Latin Mass will change your views quite considerably.
ReplyDeleteA Mass that is God centred rather than man centred, that links back to the time of Christ, that has real meaning and is doctrinally focused is a revelation. If, after that series of Masses, your position is unaltered, I would be surprised but would also respect your stance.Please remember me in your prayers as, indeed, I shall remember you in mine..
Yes, the constant self-referencing and talking to each other of the typically executed NO Mass is very depressing. There is no sense of focus on, worship of, God, and true sorrow for our sins and fear of the Lord.
DeleteBut I did for years, Richard, being a cradle Catholic,and even though I can remember a fair bit of the Latin Mass, I (you may need to sit down at this point) prefer by far Mass in the vernacular. I find it to be always centred on Our Lord, and as long as He is present, that is all that really matters. Despite the trouble others seem to have with hymns, responses, bidding prayers, I see it all as leading to God, not a distraction.
DeleteSue
And my preference is for the Latin Mass Sue, but really, it is not a matter of personal preferences. It is a question of God's preference and there is no question that the Latin Mass would be more pleasing to Him than the OF.
DeleteHow can I respond in the face of such arrogance...or delusion.
DeleteWill pray for you Richard.
God bless.
Sue
You could respond, Sue, with an argument. Instead you choose insult and condescension.
DeleteFor my part, I am convinced that the traditional Roman rite is more pleasing to God than its newer counterpart. But my sad experience has been that many Catholics, typically to be found among those whose influence has dominated the Church Militant for the last two generations, assert the opposite with scant regard for evidence, argument, or the sensibilities of the rest of us - let alone for our spiritual benefit. I think you're one such.
Parepidemos, surely you could not misconstrue Richard to be comparing the celebration of the Mass to a performance? He is merely pointing out the fact that since people are perfectly capable of keeping their mouths quiet and their limbs still during a play or ballet, etc., why should they then deem it impossible to do so at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which is obviously beyond comparison with a secular performance, yet from a human perspective may involve sitting still and saying nothing (audibly) for an hour.
ReplyDeleteOn a similar note, I will never forget how our parishioners, in a previous NO parish, used to dress for Sunday Mass in scruffy jeans etc. Then the Church got a new organ, and to celebrate, the Blessed Sacrament was removed, and an evening Organ Recital was performed. The way those folks "dressed up" to come and sit in the building (once The King was gone) in order to listen to secular music was ironic, to say the least.
Went into town this morning and popped into the local church. While I was there a lady dressed in casual clothes went to the tabernacle and put a host in the monstrance which she placed on the altar/ table for veneration. A few people entered the church which resulted in three small groups ( including the said lady ) standing around chatting. By way of contrast I attended Mass yesterday at a SSPX chapel. After Mass there was a short instruction given on the sacrements. As this involves the priest standing with his back to the tabernacle and having to ask questions the Blessed Sacrement was removed and then reinstated after the instruction was over. This was all done with due reverence.
ReplyDeleteRod, you cannot fault the SSPX.
ReplyDeleteAnon, sorry, I lost your comment by mistake. If, as I suspect, you are citing the SSPX extremists who interrupted a service, then I condemn them for poor manners and stupidity. But the actions of a few do not mean very much. Most SSPX followers would condemn that sort of action, where do you wish to go to from here?
ReplyDeleteAnon, please leave a name otherwise I will continue to delete your comments. Your sniping at the SSPX is distorted and untrue, you have hit on small factions whereas, the majority are good and excellent role models for the Faith.
DeleteI managed to read the article Anon posted before you deleted it, Richard.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.salon.com/2013/11/17/meet_the_catholic_extremists_who_could_shatter_the_church/
It goes further than you suppose (did you read it BTW?) not just about the latest vile demonstrations by SSPX members, who showed far more than just 'poor manners and stupidity', try anti-Semitism, fascism...And SSPX have also made been pretty vile about Pope Francis too! There so many factions in this cult, with any luck they'll implode.
Sue
The thing about the NO as offered around the world for 45 years is that it was the rupturing work of a few prelates that deviated radically from the VII Council's statements in relation to the Holy Mass and introduced novelties at odds with the Tradition, Magisterium and Scripture of the Faith, and conducing to the loss of Faith of huge numbers, many explicit, more implicit.
ReplyDelete"Rupturing" is apt in this context.
Delete