Friday 12 July 2013

Three barriers to the Latin Mass.....

....and thirty three barriers to the Ordinary Form!

Fr Abberton at Stella Maris blog has an interesting post on why people are put off by the Extraordinary Form of Mass, the Latin Mass.

Fr A links to the video clip below featuring Dr Tracey Rowland, an eminent Australian Catholic theologian.

It leaves me a little cold and, also, a little apprehensive that I am, perhaps, missing something.

I don't recognise the three points made by Dr Rowland.

I (in all my years) have never encountered point one, namely, that those who attend the Latin Mass, come out afterwards and dissect it in great detail.

And if they do (as I suppose could happen outside the London Oratory), then so what?

I have attended Latin Masses in London, Bristol, Cardiff, Swansea, Oxford, Cambridge, and many other towns and cities, but never have I heard the Mass being "dissected."


The good Doctor goes on to compare the Latin Mass 'critics' with those who attend performances at the opera, sniping at the fact that the soprano did not hit the top note.
Well, I do not go to the opera very often but when I do, if someone fails to hit the right note, it is a topic of the interval conversation over a glass of lemonade.

Similarly, should a priest hit what Peter Sellers might have called a 'bum note', that, too, might be mentioned in passing.

But dissecting? No.

Her next point is that young people are put off coming to the EF Mass because people "wear funny clothes".

Oh dear, is this a mantilla rant again?

Or, is it that many women, young and old, dress modestly at the Latin Mass?

I suppose that, if you wear a skirt with a hem around your armpits and a mini halter top, you would think that Catholic women  do dress oddly if you were plonked into their midst at Mass.

But, surely Dr Rowland does not mean that?

Or, does she?

And finally, Tracey Rowland makes the point that the 'politicisation' of Vatican II and the blame that orthodox Catholics attach to it, also puts people off.

To a degree she has a point on this one; Vatican II is a constant source of angst to many but I think that most, if not all, believe that there was not a lot inherently wrong with the Council.
What went wrong was the way in which the periti  took advantage of the Council to foist the Catholic world off with a vast number of horrific changes.

But, I would bet anyone reading this, a pint of Rev James bitter, if, on standing outside my parish church on a Sunday, they would receive an answer to the following question:

"What have been the benefits of Vatican II?"

You see, most modern 30 year old Catholics have little knowledge (if any) of Vatican II and would give you a blank look if you popped that question to them.

But please, judge for yourself, here is the clip:




Fr Abberton (who celebrates the Latin Mass) is concerned at the way some priests dress and hold hard to the rubrics.

Now, I would not wish to upset Fr Abberton but, again, I think a priest in a biretta looks much better than one in a shell suit.

And rubrics are great. Much better than the free for all that goes on at the Novus Ordo.

So, sorry Father.....I beg to disagree..how about you (dear reader)?

* And should there be anyone out there who would like to know the 33 barriers to the OF Mass, I shall attempt a post on the subject sometime over the weekend.
I may not make 33, but then, who knows?

24 comments:

  1. I have recently had this discussion with a friend who also appreciates the latin mass. When I asked what really was needed in terms of reform of the mass (which he says Pope Pius XII advocated), all he could think of was adding St Joseph to the mass. Did we seriously go through all this for that? I'm sure St Joseph would not have minded being left out of the mass.

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  2. Well,it is the fashion nowadays for women to wear as little as possible,so I guess seeing ladies at Mass relatively covered up is a bit of a shock!I think she means women in "Prairie"clothes,which I have never seen here but I believe happens in America.Attire very much like Amish women.
    Yes,I plead guilty to having a thing about the aftermath of VAT.2.But only "the what happened afterwards" bit.I cant forget that!

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  3. Her third point reflects my experience in Ireland. I was apologising to a relative for needing a missalette to say the new translation, and explained I usually went to the Tridentine, or Latin NO these days. She narrowed her eyes and said "Is that a house Mass?" SSPX have house masses in some places there apparently.

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  4. A young curate in a neighbouring parish found his parish priest supportive in his desire to offer Mass in the Extraordinary Form every fortnight - and at a fairly reasonable time of 1pm on Sundays. The venture lasted just over 6 months and ended because the "experts" unfailingly dissected how Father celebrated Mass: "hands too far apart", "rather dramatic in raising the Host", "holding the chalice with the wrong hand" and (horror) "wearing a watch" were only a few of the comments.

    The vast majority of the 20-30 congregants came from outside the parish, and Father became tired of them criticising their own parish priests. The unbelievable thing is that, when he stopped the 1pm EF, some of the people actually wrote to the bishop accusing the priest of depriving them of their right to have Mass in the EF. Sadly, there are indeed people who enjoy dissecting how a Mass is offered rather than focussing on the worship of God

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    1. Perhaps they need to be a bit more 21st century in giving feedback.

      Always preface any remarks by noting things that were great about it. (Like the fact that the poor chap will never get an invitation to a Magic Circle cocktail party now he has said an EF Mass).

      Then, you could tactfully say "Of course in my day the priest used to .... but I don't know if I remember that correctly....or I nearly missed that bit because I am used to seeing Fr F do it differently....

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  5. The argument that "young people are put off by the ancient rite Mass", if that was what was being implied by Rowland, falls to pieces when reality sets in. In my experience the young people introduced to the quiet beauties of that Mass come away with a sense of wonder and of awe.

    Prior to his engagement to one of my daughters, our new son-in-law accompanied her to the regular ancient rite Mass we attend here. It was his first exposure to this Mass after being brought up on the banalities of the Novus Ordo. His first words to her after the end of Mass were, and I quote: "Why have they kept me from this all these years?" He is now a regular attendee and devoted admirer of this lovely Rite.

    And that is far from the only example I could give. Our Masses are packed with young people every Sunday and Holy Day.

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  6. Nonsense, the vast majority know nothing about the ancient form of the Mass, many don't even know of its existence. They don't know the Faith and the majority has abandoned the new Mass because in most cases it is insipid, offered casually and without reverence, the congregation treated like 5 year olds with regard to what's offered them, a silly emphasis on having a nice time together. Nobody is "put off" by the Usus Antiquior except those with an agenda against it. It sounds like propaganda to me. And if people were focused on things which have nothing to do with the Holy Mass itself, their attention is obviously on the wrong things.

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  7. It's a 'tales I win, heads you lose' situation to suggest that traditional Catholics attend the EF Mass as a political statement against Vatican 2, and Tracey Rowland is surely putting the cart before the horse! As far as wearing funny clothes, what is that supposed to mean? As for the members of the congregation dissecting the Mass afterwards, I think that Tracey Rowland 'doth object too much'.

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  8. Dr Rowland, may I ask, are you creating a barrier?

    Speaking as one who had a rare experience with the Latin Mass as a teen, which changed my life, I think it is a grave lack of understanding of the grace one gets at Mass.

    No matter the number of people who wear 'funny clothes' at Mass, I'm still going to go every chance that I get. I have seen a lady dress in pyjamas at a Tridentine Mass, but her (regrettable) sartorial choice is not my affair, and I cannot say to God, at the end of my years, 'well, there was a lady dressed in Primark sleep-wear, so I passed up the opportunity for grace.'

    Dr Rowland ought to be careful that her interview, as a whole, does not constitute a barrier. To express her view, and it is her view, about the 'barriers', she has put the Mass and an opera together, so that we compare the experience of a Mass to an opera, and the congregation as retro, anachronistic, stuck-in-a-time-warp and clad in 'funny' dress, and as neurotics who dissect endlessly. 'Funny' is a fashion judgment which is subject to the fickle fads of time: but the grace at Mass is eternal and meant to be our ticket to heaven. ("If you do not eat my Flesh and drink my Blood...")

    If people knew the beauty of the Mass and the graces on offer, they would brave the other people in the pews to avail of soul-saving graces.

    The caliber of people at a Mass is not my or your responsibility, or their clothes or their discussion after Mass. Frankly, I would consider myself a crank were I to censor discussion or haughtily tell other women how they should dress. Who am I to tell them that they are in 'funny' clothes? For all, I know, that's all they can afford or maybe they just don't have good taste in clothes. Again, it's not my business. But bad taste in fashion is not listed as a sin.

    It does rankle that Dr Rowland is concerned that people only care for the appearance of the Mass, when she is quick to criticise the Mass go-ers for their appearance.

    The danger with talking about superficial, human-centric 'barriers' like clothes or items of conversation -after- Mass is that we don't talk about the Mass where they may receive Jesus' Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

    But the grace that we win at each Mass will last forever. If we go to God, and pass 1,000 years in His company, we may look down from the clouds and see people at a Latin Mass in 1970's Mork and Mindy bell bottoms and scratchy nylon dresses and talking about Vatican III. But that's if we have sufficient grace for Heaven. What happens if we don't?

    That's the heart of the matter. No matter what other people wear or say - if we really understand the importance of grace for everlasting life - why would we let trivialities put us off the Tridentine Mass? Or is it that there is not enough appreciation of grace? Is it because too many theologians talk about 'funny clothes' and not about the meaning of 'introibo ad Altare Dei?'

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  9. Thank you Mary, your comment has so much depth and integrity to it, there is nothing more that needs to be stated.
    I particularly like the line: "If people knew the beauty of the Mass and the graces on offer, they would brave the other people in the pews to avail of soul-saving graces".
    Classical Catholic logic.

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  10. Thank you all for your comments, if I replied individually, it would become very repetitive (cop out excuse).
    But to Parepedimos I say that the situation you quoted is very sad and I do not doubt it.
    It is just that I have never come across anything quite like it.

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  11. Richard,
    Thanks for highlighting this. I have posted on it myself.

    It appears to be a clip of an interview after her rather brilliant Liturgia Sacra talk on the Traditional Mass and Evangelisation, here she is addressing the 'politico-theological' barriers, which I understand was a footnote to her talk.
    She is, as was her talk, very much for the Traditional Mass.

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  12. Hi Richard,

    I have to be absolutely honest and say that Dr. Rowland is way off the mark on this.

    Baring in mind that I am proactive in this issue, in probably one of the most overtly liberal catholic parishes in the country, I can clearly point to five reactions to the TLM:

    1. Anger (literally). I have had some who would not speak to me after bringing this issue up.

    2. Confused intrigue (i.e. younger pew sitters who are too young to understand the politics).

    3. Confused shoulder shrugging i.e. pew sitter who are older, but are not old enough to be part of the original liberal cabal.

    4. Reverse snobbery i.e. "I don't agree with this Latin. It causes the working classes to be downtrodden". This is rare, but does happen. They also have to be quite confident to express this view.

    5. Glee i.e. those who remember it and are more than happy to see it return.

    After, the initial reactions then you get into why people (who have experienced it) like/do not like the Latin Mass.

    The majority of people who struggle with the TLM, I believe do not like it, because they are too used to being entertained in the N.O. Mass. Harsh, but true.

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  13. Father Ray, good to hear that she is a supporter of the Latin Mass but a somewhat strange clip nonetheless. I did read your post from which I gathered that she is sound, also similar noises from Australia Incognito (Kate Edwards.)

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  14. Excellent points Mike. I would add one more: 'Disappointed'. That is, those who remember the Latin Mass and return to it (once) and then run a mile in the opposite direction (it is too "quiet" for them).

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  15. I think you have hit the nail on the head, Richard. We are so shell-shocked by noise in our everyday lives that many find silence disorienting, even frightening.
    I wonder whether Dr. Rowland was hi-jacked by the interviewer.

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  16. Well, if we're going to see Almighty God in the Mass, it's best to not dress like a prostitute. Let's use logic. Shall we?

    God bless!

    ~Hannah

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  17. Thanks Genty...the debate rumbles on.
    Hannah, good and pithy comment, God bless.

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    1. Thank you.

      Just trying to tell the truth, as it is...

      God bless!

      ~Hannah

      BTW, I love the blog!

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  18. Fr Ray...or 'Incognita' even! Apologies to KE.

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  19. At Mass this morning the (visiting) priest didn't close the missal after the Postcommunion. Fortunately the young lad serving didn't take it as an indication that he should move the book to the gospel side. He also forgot the Dominus vobiscum before the Last Gospel. Who noticed? Perhaps half the congregation. Who bothered to mention it afterwards? No-one. People are just grateful that a middle-aged priest should a) have taught himself to celebrate the older form and b) have been prepared to travel, not just to say Mass but to hear confessions afterwards.

    There were a lot of very young children in the congregation, and they were very well behaved. Good to see.

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  20. John, that is all good, priests can forget things especially when they come fresh to the Latin Mass and we need to remember that and not carp when they do slip up. Your point about us being grateful is the key, I believe. Thank you.

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  21. Should we actually care what Tracey Rowland thinks? Who is she, anyway? Go to Mass, try to live a Catholic life. People will mock you, people will hate you. If the worldly like you, then you're doing it wrong.

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  22. The only other people I have heard criticise the dress of those attending the Latin Mass have been Opus Dei people, and I suspect that is where Tracey Rowland gets her views. She fits the profile of an Opus Dei attender.

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