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| There are more Eskimos than Latin Masses in Westminster Photo: Liberapedia |
But it's still a bleak midwinter outlook for the Traditional Latin Mass in the mother Diocese of England and Wales, the Archdiocese of Westminster.
Here's the comment from the Latin Mass Society:
Thank you for bringing this issue up.
We at the LMS office are currently in the process of creating a Mass Listing for both the Immaculate Conception and Christmas.
They should be available to the public by the end of the week.
As to the situation at Westminster Cathedral, we have to concede that the situation is bleak.
The Provision of Masses in Westminster Diocese according to the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum and the clarification Universae Eccesiae, is one of the poorest in the country.
We pray that Westminster Diocese will decide, in charity, to provide the Traditional Latin Mass at more venues (such as anywhere outside of Central London, for instance in it's North London Parishes) at more charitable times.
With regards to our format, we appreciate the feedback, and while it has been the practice of the LMS to use PDF documents to publish our listings, we do hope to change that in the not too distant future to make them more accessible and searchable.
God bless.
We at the LMS office are currently in the process of creating a Mass Listing for both the Immaculate Conception and Christmas.
They should be available to the public by the end of the week.
As to the situation at Westminster Cathedral, we have to concede that the situation is bleak.
The Provision of Masses in Westminster Diocese according to the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum and the clarification Universae Eccesiae, is one of the poorest in the country.
We pray that Westminster Diocese will decide, in charity, to provide the Traditional Latin Mass at more venues (such as anywhere outside of Central London, for instance in it's North London Parishes) at more charitable times.
With regards to our format, we appreciate the feedback, and while it has been the practice of the LMS to use PDF documents to publish our listings, we do hope to change that in the not too distant future to make them more accessible and searchable.
God bless.
The Canon Administrator of Westminster Cathedral is very well disposed to the Traditional Latin Mass - I was on one of the Latin Mass training courses with him. So there may be some special problem for Christmas Day at Westminster that contributes to the situation
ReplyDeleteIndeed he is, and I've talked to him. Yet Westminster Cathedral ignores Redemptionis Sacramentum on a daily basis in regard to use of EMHC. Last day of Advent 2011. Latin Mass (said). One priest, one server, one lay reader. TWO female EHMC despite the fact that the congregation was small and the chalice was not offered. No wonder real Catholics decamp to the Oratory.
DeleteWhat a shame to hear this. I do hope that if this could be corrected, we might see some big changes!
ReplyDeleteAre the diocese to blame if there is no groundswell of demand for Latin?
ReplyDeleteOf course there is a demand for Latin - look at the congregation at 11 am at the LO, and last Sunday at the Oxford Oratory it was standing room only - the residual congregations at most (dire) parish Masses are just that - residual. Let's try and get people back
ReplyDeletewho left years ago, and attract young people who are looking for spiritual sustenance. I wouldn't cross the road to attend what passes for liturgy in most parishes.
Interesting John that I hear from so many that young people want Mass in Latin, I never hear it from the young themselves. I hear it from parents and priests, but not the young themselves, in fact quite the opposite, and I work with 2000 of them.
ReplyDeleteYou may find OF Mass dire, however, the vast majority don't, and is it really appropriate for one to assume our taste is the better option, and to denigrate it in an unchristian fashion.
Our Sunday 9.30 Mass,is also standing room only. I have attended LO, and Spanish Place and come to that Clapham Park, yes, there is a demand for Latin, or there would not be an LMS, my question is, is there a groundswell?
And is the diocese to blame if the Mass of preference is OF?
Tony, the late great Hans Keller once remarked "Art has nothing to do with taste". He was of course talking about music, but his remarks apply mutatis mutandis to the liturgy. I happened to be young when, without anyone asking my opinion on the matter, I was expected to worship (at least in public) in a radically different and, to me, unacceptable way.
DeleteI don't denigrate the OF Mass per se, and attend it fifty percent of the time. Yet I suspect that the youth who approach you already know what is on offer, and accept your agenda. What about the rest of them?
ReplyDeleteTony, if I may just but in here. You only have to look at the congregations at Traditional Latin Masses, more young than old at most. Seminarians are demanding training in the old rite. This is not a numbers game; if the majority prefer the OF Mass (nothing wrong in that it's just all the hoo hah that goes with it, plus the general lack of reverence)it does not make them right. And, yes, we are called upon to make judgements as to what is sound and what is flaky and, finally, I do not think that, on this post and comments, anyone has been unchristian. God bless. Richard
John, I was referring to personal taste as opposed to tastefulness, as Keller was in his. The youth I refer to are pupils in the schools I work in. At both schools EF and OF Latin have been offered only to be dismissed. I am also involved in a deanery wide youth mission elsewhere where any Latin liturgy was dismissed by the young, having been told by others that they were hungry for it.
ReplyDeleteRichard, most seminarians where? You refer to the OF Mass as being right or wrong, the crux of my comment is whether it is being sought or not, if it's not, Westminster's provision is adequate. Your flaky is someone else's sound, and by calling their sound flaky, you are denigrating it, as does John's use of the word 'dire'
Any form of denigrating is unchristian.
Tony, I don't want to get into an argument about aesthetics, although I am optimistic enough to think that the good will penetrate the carapace of even the most obdurate, assuming that there is some sensibility there in the first place. Do all the pupils in the schools in which you work fail to detect beauty in music, be it chant or polyphony? Do they dismiss Latin in the liturgy out of a higher sense of right-thinking or simply because they have not really been exposed to it, and nor have their so-called teachers? Aren't we really talking about ignorance reinforcing ignorance and then sitting back and congratulating itself on the success of its endeavours? Keller was speaking out against cultural relativism in his own field, music. Denigration of what is ignorant and meretricious is a Christian duty; we are called upon to forgive it, not to condone it.
ReplyDeleteMy recent experience at a Latin Mass in Houston was joyful - even very young children knew the responses, the choir of young men and women was outstanding, and the liturgy was about God, not about the stylins' of aging hippies.
ReplyDelete- Mack in Texas
"their so-called teachers"; Yes we are talking about ignorance John.
ReplyDeleteYou'll note how many unpleasant comments are made about those whose preference is the OF in just this thread alone.
If you can point me to internet posts from those who prefer OF denigrating not only the EF but those who attend,I would be indebted.
I can furnish you with a swathe of degrogatory comments from EF fans about OF fans, OF music etc etc. These sharp unneccesary comments have an effect on my own appraciation of the EF which has clearly not been picked up in the posts.
While I wait to see the posts I ask for, I shall continue to pray for you, it's what Christ commanded of us.
Tony, a glance at the combox of the PrayTell blog or NCR on-line should answer your question. If you think there is such a thing as "OF music" rather than a particular musical style which is tolerated in certain OF circles, then you have obviously not referred to SC, Musicam Sacram or the GIRM. I can't prevent you from preferring a deracinated version of Catholic music and liturgy but if you're praying that I might see the light, you're wasting your time. I was around in the 1970s and have no intention of revisiting that decade.
DeleteThank you John, you have rested my case better than I could have.
ReplyDelete?
DeleteTony this trolling of traddie blogs needs to stop and is unbecoming for a man in your position.
ReplyDeleteThe opening post was perfectly reasonable, there has been no unpleasantness towards anyone who might prefer the OF, in fact the bulk of the unpleasantness has come from you.
Your continued sniping and berating of those who prefer the EF is worrying, scandalous and tiresome. What harm would the provision of the EF in Westminster Cathedral cause you?
One wonders where all those priests who have attended the training courses over the last few years organised by the latin mass society have gone.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteGosh, Maria - I stand in awe of your magnificent rhetoric, bravo!
177 - that is a very good point, where are they?