tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post3973079303687296097..comments2024-03-23T09:59:53.293+00:00Comments on LINEN ON THE HEDGEROW: When is a Mass invalid?Richard Collinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10826907710570316952noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-48658299664437440132011-07-26T22:02:46.515+01:002011-07-26T22:02:46.515+01:00Just another key point in remembering that the int...Just another key point in remembering that the intention of the priest must be "to do as the Church does," not the doctrine of transubstantiation is that the Church accepts the Orthodox Eucharist as valid, and the Orthodox reject the Scholastic definition of transubstantiation.Mike Roeschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14559042645461093807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-20195940542454324582011-03-22T01:15:53.892+00:002011-03-22T01:15:53.892+00:00I am never going to write anything anymore about c...I am never going to write anything anymore about canon law without running it by my husband again. Regarding liceity for a sacrament, apparently there ARE elements which would make the sacrament licit or illicit, such as leavened bread being used in the Latin rite. This does not make it "less" Jesus, but Church law was not followed. A sacrament has elements that would affect validity AND ALSO elements that would affect liceity. However, the Mass is the liturgical rite and not the sacrament itself. <br /><br />Regarding your question, if a non-ordained person attempts to say Mass, it is a simulation and not a liturgy, which, by definition requires the proper person to perform it. In this sense, it would be "invalid," however, outside of it "not happening," the Church does not speak of the Mass as being invalid or not in strictly canonical terms.<br /><br />Ugh. I am just learning and the distinctions still confuse me, even when I think I have them down. My previous comment was partly true. The mistakes I have corrected here with his approval. Surely this will be more helpful than any of my previous posts. I take full responsiblity for any of the confusion I have perpetuated.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118434604256650716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-19895567276857431222011-03-21T20:06:39.467+00:002011-03-21T20:06:39.467+00:00I am glad I checked back. As to your question, can...I am glad I checked back. As to your question, canonically, the classification for a SACRAMENT is either valid or invalid, so it is not accurate to speak about the liturgy as being valid or invalid, just as one could NOT say that a sacrament itself is licit or illicit. Pertaining to the Eucharist, it's either Christ, or it's not. There are no greater or lesser degrees of being Christ. Pertaining to the Sacrament of Reconciliation, one is either forgiven or not. Pertaining to the Sacrament of Baptism, one is either baptized in Christ or not. One is either married or not. One is either ordained or not...etc. The ceremony itself can have a whole host of problems that vary in degrees of liceity, from the tiniest mistake to the most elaborate catastophy, but the sacramental validity is its own issue. Hope this helps.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118434604256650716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-63873360281286047802011-03-19T20:58:27.826+00:002011-03-19T20:58:27.826+00:00This post to me as if it were dancing around the h...This post to me as if it were dancing around the heresy called Donatism which said that sacraments confected by apostate priests were invalid.<br /><br />Yes, licit and valid are two different things.JPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08433061807436268115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-10787088362124633162011-03-18T11:13:21.102+00:002011-03-18T11:13:21.102+00:00Credo Catholic - I am extremely nervous about mixi...Credo Catholic - I am extremely nervous about mixing it with a canon lawyer. However, if a non ordained person acted as a priest at Mass, that Mass would surely not be illicit but invalid.<br /><br />Fr PF & CC - I totally agree and should have made clear that, in emergency any bread or wine would be valid.Richard Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10826907710570316952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-80706629437387425672011-03-17T23:56:06.184+00:002011-03-17T23:56:06.184+00:00Yep. My husband corrected me on that one too, Fr P...Yep. My husband corrected me on that one too, Fr PF. Thank you. The bread is required to be wheat, however.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118434604256650716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-86702550399727533272011-03-17T23:32:39.599+00:002011-03-17T23:32:39.599+00:00Unleavened bread is not required for validity. Lea...Unleavened bread is not required for validity. Leavened bread is used by some of the oriental rites of the Catholic Church, and a priest of the Latin Rite could use this bread if no other was available, e.g. when celebrating in a place where there are no Catholic churches of the Latin Rite.Fr PFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05457491150852082652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-50464970383655386962011-03-17T19:11:46.209+00:002011-03-17T19:11:46.209+00:00Okay. I was able to ask my husband about this and ...Okay. I was able to ask my husband about this and there are some things he was able to clarify. <br /><br />1) When we speak about the Mass, we do not speak in terms of validity or invalidity. The Mass is the ceremony that is wrapped around the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The Mass can be illicit to varying degrees, but it is not able to be classified as invalid. <br /><br />2) The Eucharist is a Sacrament, so the conditions for any sacrament would apply for validity. The conditions are as follows: proper form (for the Eucharist, the words This is my Body/ This is my Blood); proper matter (unleavened bread and wine as specified by Church regulations); the intention to perform the act as the Church intends (not necessarily belief – so a priest who has lost his faith in the true presence CAN still perform a valid consecration); and the proper person (an ordained priest). <br /><br />I love having an expert at arm’s length...it does make me a little lazy sometimes. It’s much easier to ask him than to look it up myself. :) Hope this helps!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118434604256650716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-9349014545426064762011-03-17T18:38:21.758+00:002011-03-17T18:38:21.758+00:00My husband is a canon lawyer and a professor of bo...My husband is a canon lawyer and a professor of both canon law and liturgy. I will show him your post and ask him about some of the questions you raise. It is very important to know the difference between illicit and invalid. There are intricacies that are not commonly known that would invalidate. Conversely, sometimes we will witness a Mass that we think would certainly be invalid, but it technically was a valid Mass, although extremely illicit. A pastor once described the difference between the two. Invalid is when Jesus is not there. Illicit is when Jesus is there, but He's not happy about it. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118434604256650716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-46063586450209592002011-03-17T18:19:10.543+00:002011-03-17T18:19:10.543+00:00Novus Ordo priest with a child on his lap during h...Novus Ordo priest with a child on his lap during his homily would do well to reflect on W.C.Filds' dictum: " Never perform/ act with children or animals."Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00419516065899508757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3682550116445790117.post-75126964665746428072011-03-17T18:17:58.647+00:002011-03-17T18:17:58.647+00:00Richard - we live in such worrying times. God help...Richard - we live in such worrying times. God help us all. Quite literally.Webmaster Garethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14145929812952678326noreply@blogger.com